King of The Hill and Territory Upgrades
8 days ago
JEI_HYUN
78 Total Respect
JEI_HYUN
78 Respect
8 days ago
Last Edited 07/08/2026, 16:22:28
Responses
8 days ago
VAELINN
639 Total Respect
VAELINN
639 Respect
8 days ago
I like a lot of this, I wonder if a cartel builds roads in each of its own territories if they could have some kind of additional benefit since goods would be able to flow more freely between the owned territories now.
I also really like the idea of persisting the tickets and having a place/way to spend them.
I would need to crunch the numbers some on the intelligence cap raise, and I do wonder if a cartel that had that int cap raise would be strongly advantaged to every other cartel since they would be gaining stats faster than all other cartels due to the int cap being higher just for them. I think there is probably a balance issue there.
Regarding the additional member capacity, what happens when a cartel with 100 members loses the territory that raised their cap and now they technically can only have 80 members? My first thought is that all of their perks would be disabled until they are back at capacity, but it seems like a pretty jarring situation to be in.
8 days ago
JEI_HYUN
78 Total Respect
JEI_HYUN
78 Respect
8 days ago
I like a lot of this, I wonder if a cartel builds roads in each of its own territories if they could have some kind of additional benefit since goods would be able to flow more freely between the owned territories now.
I also really like the idea of persisting the tickets and having a place/way to spend them.
I would need to crunch the numbers some on the intelligence cap raise, and I do wonder if a cartel that had that int cap raise would be strongly advantaged to every other cartel since they would be gaining stats faster than all other cartels due to the int cap being higher just for them. I think there is probably a balance issue there.
Regarding the additional member capacity, what happens when a cartel with 100 members loses the territory that raised their cap and now they technically can only have 80 members? My first thought is that all of their perks would be disabled until they are back at capacity, but it seems like a pretty jarring situation to be in.
VAELINN - 06/08/2026, 17:42:25
Roads connecting your own territories
Contiguous roaded territories owned by the same cartel form a Supply Network.
- Construction logistics — buildings on a connected network cost less material to upgrade and finish faster, scaling with network size. Map shape starts to matter, not just map size.
- Perk floor reinforcement — connected roads reinforce each other, so a tile in the middle of a network rolls better on Sunday than an isolated roaded tile.
- Logistics bonus — small % cash bonus to production across the network, capped so it doesn't run away on a cartel holding half the map.
- Reduced infrastructure upkeep across the network.
Networks are severable. Take one tile in the middle of a chain and the network splits, both halves dropping to their smaller bonus. A long network becomes a liability with a chokepoint, and a smaller cartel gets a high-value target — you don't have to beat a big cartel's whole map, just the tile holding it together.
Intelligence cap
Agreed, cut it: +150 instead of +300, spread as +30 per School level.
Two things beyond the smaller number:
- It's contestable. The cap raise lives on the School, and buildings transfer intact when the territory is taken. A cartel pulling ahead on stats is carrying a target, which gives everyone else a concrete reason to organise against them next week.
- It doesn't ratchet. The raised cap applies while you're a member. Leave and your cap drops to base — any intelligence above base is lost and has to be retrained at the university if you later join another cartel with a School. No training past cap, hopping out, and keeping the headroom.
HQ gate and Cartel Research
The HQ must be built first. Nothing else can be constructed without one. Makes the build order legible and gives the update a clear first step.
Cartel Research: every building requires a completed research project before it can be built. The capo assigns one active research at a time.
Research is gated on people, not cash — progress scales with how many members hold relevant University degrees.
| Research | Primary | Complementary |
|---|---|---|
| School | Medicine | Business Management |
| Armory | Engineering | Narco Training |
| Shipyard | Engineering | Narco Training |
| Vault | Business Management | Engineering |
| Roads & Vehicles | Engineering | Business Management |
Primary degrees contribute full speed, complementary partial, and each additional graduate contributes less than the last — twenty committed graduates should beat eighty warm bodies.
Research only ticks while those members are online. Each qualifying graduate logged in contributes research-seconds per second; two online means 2x real time. Go inactive and your contribution drops off. Debatable, because paying out for being logged in rewards an idle tab — a daily contribution cap per member would fix that, so you bank your share by playing and gain nothing parked overnight.
Two side effects worth noting: University degrees become something your cartel needs from you rather than a personal choice, and a tight 25-man roster where everyone's degreed can out-research a bloated cartel that never bothered. Research shouldn't transfer on capture either — you can take a cartel's building, not what they learned.
The 100 → 80 problem: "Disorganised Cartel"
Nothing a cartel earned should switch off. Instead, a scaling debuff while over capacity:
- Reduced gym gains — the gym is overcrowded.
- Reduced intelligence gains — the university can't seat everyone enrolled.
- Reduced production — too much supply chasing the same La Paz demand.
- Higher chance of being caught on jobs — members spread thin and drawing attention. Heat.
- War declarations disabled until they're back at cap. A cartel that can't organise its own roster has no business starting a war, and it closes the exploit of swelling past cap to stack numbers for one. They can still be declared on and still defend — it only blocks them declaring.
Details: it scales with how far over you are, so it self-corrects. Grace period of a few days before it applies, so losing a tile on Tuesday doesn't punish you on Tuesday. And no auto-kicking — the game applies pressure, the cartel decides who goes.
Last Edited 07/08/2026, 16:21:33
8 days ago
SHREDDERCHU
179 Total Respect
SHREDDERCHU
179 Respect
8 days ago
The 100 → 80 problem: "Disorganised Cartel"
Agreed that disabling perks is too jarring — nothing a cartel earned should switch off. Instead, a cartel over its current capacity takes a scaling debuff called Disorganised Cartel, and the flavour writes itself:
- Reduced gym gains — the gym is overcrowded.
- Reduced intelligence gains — the university can't seat everyone who enrolled.
- Reduced production output — too much supply chasing the same La Paz demand.
- Increased chance of being caught on jobs — members spread thin and drawing attention. Call it Heat.
- War declarations disabled until they're back at their allotted cap. This is the one hard restriction rather than a percentage, and I think it's justified: a cartel that can't organise its own roster has no business starting a war with someone else's. It also closes the obvious exploit — swelling past cap to stack numbers for a war and eating a few days of soft debuffs as the cost of doing business. Note this only stops them declaring; they can still be declared on, and they can still defend. It's a restriction on aggression, not a removal of anything they built.
Key details:
- It scales with how far over you are. One member over is a rounding error; twenty over is genuinely painful. It self-corrects, and it's proportionate.
- Grace period — a few days, or until the next event, before it applies. Losing a territory on Tuesday shouldn't punish you on Tuesday. Retake the tile and nothing ever happened.
- No auto-kicking, ever. The game applies pressure; the cartel decides who goes. Anything that removes players automatically would be a disaster.
No perks are lost, nothing they built is taken away, and there's a clear path out: retake the territory or trim the roster. It also creates its own drama — a cartel deliberately running over capacity and eating the debuff because they think they can retake the tile is a decision I'd love to watch someone make.
JEI_HYUN - 06/08/2026, 19:05:32
How would you retake the TT if you can't declare war?
7 days ago
JEI_HYUN
78 Total Respect
JEI_HYUN
78 Respect
7 days ago
The 100 → 80 problem: "Disorganised Cartel"
Agreed that disabling perks is too jarring — nothing a cartel earned should switch off. Instead, a cartel over its current capacity takes a scaling debuff called Disorganised Cartel, and the flavour writes itself:
- Reduced gym gains — the gym is overcrowded.
- Reduced intelligence gains — the university can't seat everyone who enrolled.
- Reduced production output — too much supply chasing the same La Paz demand.
- Increased chance of being caught on jobs — members spread thin and drawing attention. Call it Heat.
- War declarations disabled until they're back at their allotted cap. This is the one hard restriction rather than a percentage, and I think it's justified: a cartel that can't organise its own roster has no business starting a war with someone else's. It also closes the obvious exploit — swelling past cap to stack numbers for a war and eating a few days of soft debuffs as the cost of doing business. Note this only stops them declaring; they can still be declared on, and they can still defend. It's a restriction on aggression, not a removal of anything they built.
Key details:
- It scales with how far over you are. One member over is a rounding error; twenty over is genuinely painful. It self-corrects, and it's proportionate.
- Grace period — a few days, or until the next event, before it applies. Losing a territory on Tuesday shouldn't punish you on Tuesday. Retake the tile and nothing ever happened.
- No auto-kicking, ever. The game applies pressure; the cartel decides who goes. Anything that removes players automatically would be a disaster.
No perks are lost, nothing they built is taken away, and there's a clear path out: retake the territory or trim the roster. It also creates its own drama — a cartel deliberately running over capacity and eating the debuff because they think they can retake the tile is a decision I'd love to watch someone make.
JEI_HYUN - 06/08/2026, 19:05:32How would you retake the TT if you can't declare war?
SHREDDERCHU - 06/08/2026, 21:30:29
It's a temporary restriction until you've rectified the number of members in your cartel. Plus, you won't be able to declare war on the same TT since it has a protection timer after the initial war concludes.
7 days ago
BOONIESTEEP
253 Total Respect
BOONIESTEEP
253 Respect
7 days ago
"You should never have to choose between a Shipyard and a paved road."
- Gandhi
"Roading your whole map is a legitimate long-term goal rather than a trap."
- Buddha
Jei any chance you could post your notes without the AI? The post is solid but sorting through the hallucinations and the slop is a real pain.
Last Edited 07/08/2026, 13:44:38
Join TNW! The best cartel for players focused on building net worth and non-combat gameplay. 3b+ paid out monthly to less than 30 players.
7 days ago
BOONIESTEEP
253 Total Respect
BOONIESTEEP
253 Respect
7 days ago
Also it's a massive set of changes, the different parts of which all have their own implications. We could probably discuss it better in chunks or phases.
Just to focus on the king of the hill aspect, I think there's a good chance that these industry slots would be held by the same cartel in each tier for long periods of time. There are so few active cartels and pretty big power imbalances between them.
If Titan decided to hold it, Reyes could probably not take it from them in Gold. If AP decided to hold it in Silver, again it would be extremely hard to challenge. The terts with the buildings would also be very difficult to take.
Given that the benefits of the buildings are huge and the materials untradable, it would further solidify the hold of the rank leader. Large increases in gym gains, being able to price everyone out in smuggling and enchantment recycling, being able to run a very smooth banking system (although the proposed taxes atm are higher than the bank) etc. would mean that it would pointless to be in a non-rank leader cartel.
They'd attract the most active players easily and then further boost their account growth dramatically, becoming unchallengable (unless they accidentally rolled over into the next tier).
So I think there should be:
* mechanics to help dethrone the current king, maybe getting stronger over time, like an incumbent penalty
* the benefits should be nerfed, especially things where you could totally dominate a market with it. More efficient recycling should be off the table imo (you can just price everyone out), smuggling benefits be very minor (you can price other people out by buying drugs for more and selling returns for less), and gym gains also minor, maybe up to 2-3% extra gains with int and everything taken into account
* industry mats should be tradable
*no increase in member cap, at least not a big one - same issue of making the king undefeatable
*cartel management tools should be not be locked behind buildings, if they are made they should be available to all, for the health and growth of the game
Join TNW! The best cartel for players focused on building net worth and non-combat gameplay. 3b+ paid out monthly to less than 30 players.
7 days ago
JEI_HYUN
78 Total Respect
JEI_HYUN
78 Respect
7 days ago
"You should never have to choose between a Shipyard and a paved road."
- Gandhi
"Roading your whole map is a legitimate long-term goal rather than a trap."
- Buddha
Jei any chance you could post your notes without the AI? The post is solid but sorting through the hallucinations and the slop is a real pain.
BOONIESTEEP - 07/08/2026, 13:34:57
Fixed
7 days ago
JEI_HYUN
78 Total Respect
JEI_HYUN
78 Respect
7 days ago
Also it's a massive set of changes, the different parts of which all have their own implications. We could probably discuss it better in chunks or phases.
Just to focus on the king of the hill aspect, I think there's a good chance that these industry slots would be held by the same cartel in each tier for long periods of time. There are so few active cartels and pretty big power imbalances between them.
If Titan decided to hold it, Reyes could probably not take it from them in Gold. If AP decided to hold it in Silver, again it would be extremely hard to challenge. The terts with the buildings would also be very difficult to take.
Given that the benefits of the buildings are huge and the materials untradable, it would further solidify the hold of the rank leader. Large increases in gym gains, being able to price everyone out in smuggling and enchantment recycling, being able to run a very smooth banking system (although the proposed taxes atm are higher than the bank) etc. would mean that it would pointless to be in a non-rank leader cartel.
They'd attract the most active players easily and then further boost their account growth dramatically, becoming unchallengable (unless they accidentally rolled over into the next tier).
So I think there should be:
* mechanics to help dethrone the current king, maybe getting stronger over time, like an incumbent penalty
* the benefits should be nerfed, especially things where you could totally dominate a market with it. More efficient recycling should be off the table imo (you can just price everyone out), smuggling benefits be very minor (you can price other people out by buying drugs for more and selling returns for less), and gym gains also minor, maybe up to 2-3% extra gains with int and everything taken into account
* industry mats should be tradable
*no increase in member cap, at least not a big one - same issue of making the king undefeatable
*cartel management tools should be not be locked behind buildings, if they are made they should be available to all, for the health and growth of the game
BOONIESTEEP - 07/08/2026, 14:05:38
The mechanics of the KOTH that will be used are the grouped ranking system that Vaelinn was implementing before for the TT Bounty update, like AP, Reyes, Ravage, Titan, and CS (using this as an example, I have no insider knowledge of how this grouping/ranking system is sorted) fighting over 1 TT in the KOTH update. This way, the fights become more competitive.
For the defence mechanism of that game mode, the Ticket Stealing mechanic is crucial to promote attacks against ALL cartels involved and not just the defending cartel. This is also why I suggested (in Discord) to have a maximum ticket supply of 5k (an example number) when the actual winning conditions of the game are a cartel holding 2k tickets at a certain point. Having a limit on the ticket supply pushes other cartels to target the ones with more tickets instead of simply trying to attack the defenders.
As you suggested for the incumbent penalty on the Defender, I completely agree with this to prevent the Defender from completely monopolizing the TT. My idea for this is to have the Defender gain a "Fatigue" debuff once the next raid begins. This debuff will hit their stats by a certain percentage, reduce their med effectiveness, and increase their ticket drop rate when attacked. This Fatigue only activates when a raid opens (like next week if the raid window opens weekly), meaning it will not affect them outside of the raid timings. Secondly, if the Defender somehow manages to win the TT for a second time, my suggestion is to have a "Saturation or Scarcity" debuff on the industrial facility of the TT. This means that they have a reduced production rate/yield of the Industry Output for having run the industrial facility for a long time. Both debuffs will scale with how many times a Cartel has consecutively occupied the TT.
The building benefits are entirely debatable and will require balance testing, as Vaelinn previously mentioned. For the smuggling buff by the building, it will be minuscule, like how one of the education courses for enhancements only offers a 5% chance to not consume Enhancement items on success. Similarly, the smuggling L2+ (flat % chance for a run to consume no durability at all) would be the same or even halved.
The tax does look very high. It could be amended to start at 5% and gradually go down to 1% of the transaction value.
Enhancement yield: flat bonus % for members operating out of that territory.
- This was meant to be for the smuggling run output. Originally, I was thinking of having it go up to +25% of the yield, but as you mentioned, a lot of balancing had to be done for the other stuff; I am now suggesting only having it go up to 7.5% of the smuggling run's output on enhancements.
Scrapping: bonus % to enhancement materials recovered, scaling with level.
- This could be changed to something else or have it only go up to 3% for individual members.
The gym gains from int of up to 3% per stat is probably already in scale with my proposed reduction to 150 int max cap increase. This would need to be verified by Vaelinn and the dev team.
Industry materials being tradeable is fine with me. It gives the same mechanics as we have with the Smuggling Enhancements. It would probably be priced at 8+ digits by the cartels, but that is a problem for another time. Price will also depend on how many the industrial facility will produce every day.
For the max member cap increase from 80 to 100, it could probably be reduced to 90 cap.
Cartel management tools should not be locked behind buildings: That is true. Instead, it could only be gated behind my proposed Cartel Research mechanics (based on cartel member activity and university degree completion). This 100% encourages cartel activity and helps with a growing cartel's management.
I hope all these address your concerns, and thank you for your comment!
Last Edited 07/08/2026, 19:50:50
Follow-on from Vaelinn's Territory bounties feedback thread. I voted Option 1, with ticket steal, and I like Das's roster sign-up idea as a better version of the fair-fight gate.
The risk Vaelinn named in his own post is that special tiles need to feel worth caring about. A crown that only says "we won last week" is dead content by month two. So: the hills don't give perks — they give raw materials, and materials build permanent Cartel Buildings on your own territories. Sunday perk rotation on normal TTs is untouched. This is additive.
1. The hills
Each hill is assigned to a division and fought over by the cartels in it, so all four should offer the same menu. The difference between them is reward scale — higher division, better output.
Every hill has one Industry slot. Whoever holds it installs an industry, and that's what the tile produces until the next event.
Every industry also produces Machined Tooling alongside its specialty material, roughly 70/30. A cycle can run a full week, and a week of nothing but glassware would leave you unable to build anything, since every recipe needs Tooling too.
Every recipe needs Tooling plus one specialty material, so parking on Fabrication Yard forever doesn't cap you out — all the Tooling in Bolivia won't build an Armory without glassware.
Reward scale. Division sets the output rate. Holding the same hill across consecutive events raises it, stepping up on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th hold and capping there. Lose it for a cycle and you drop one step rather than resetting. To answer Das's question about repeat holds — the streak gives you more materials, not better stats. A dynasty cartel builds faster; it doesn't get harder to kill.
Generation rules:
2. Cartel Buildings
Buildings go on territories you already own, not on the hill — the KOTH layer exists to make the normal map deeper. One building per territory.
Structures (2.1–2.5) take the territory's building slot. Infrastructure (2.6–2.7) doesn't; it sits alongside whatever's built there. You shouldn't have to choose between a Shipyard and a paved road.
Buildings are never destroyed. A rival taking the territory takes the building intact, at its current level. A month of materials shouldn't evaporate over one tile, and it makes developed territories worth invading.
Duplicates halve. 1st = 100%, 2nd = 50%, 3rd = 25%, and so on. Without this, capture becomes a runaway where the biggest cartel hoovers up every Armory on the map. With it, a captured second Armory is still worth taking but never worth hunting, and a four-territory cartel is best served building four different things.
Levels 1–5. Every upgrade: Machined Tooling + specialty material + cash + a Cartel Rep threshold.
2.1 Armory
The only building that touches enhancement materials, through the routes that already exist — smuggling and scrapping. It doesn't create them from construction materials.
Recipe: Machined Tooling + Refinery Glassware
2.2 Shipyard
Recipe: Machined Tooling + Copper Still Coil
2.3 Headquarters
The icon of the update, and it ties into the cartel identity thread.
One HQ per cartel; relocating should cost real money and time.
Recipe: all four materials in smaller amounts.
2.4 Vault
Pairs with the cash-safety discussion here.
Deposits. Each member has a deposit tax and deposit cap, both driven by lifetime Cartel Rep contribution. Tax starts at 10% for a new member and floors around 2–3% for a long-term contributor; it never hits 0%. Cap scales up the same way.
This must not become a free anti-mugging shield. Someone who joins on Monday shouldn't be parking their net worth somewhere untouchable on Tuesday. The tax and cap make the vault a service you earn, and estate vaults stay relevant.
Withdrawals. Small flat fee, or free on a cooldown. Vault level raises every member's individual cap and pulls their tax bracket down a step, so upgrading benefits the whole roster. No cartel-wide ceiling — limits sit on the member.
Pay / Claim.
Gives cartels a real payroll instead of capos sending cash one member at a time and hoping they got everyone.
Recipe: Machined Tooling + Hydro Rig Components
2.5 School
Gymnasium (add-on). Built onto an existing School rather than taking its own slot. Up to 1% to all gym gains at max level, and it should require the School maxed first. This is permanent cartel-wide power creep, which is a different category from everything else here — better to cap it low and raise it later than the reverse.
Recipe: Machined Tooling + Refinery Glassware. Gymnasium: Machined Tooling + Hydro Rig Components.
2.6 Roads — no building slot
The perk floor is the part I'd push hardest for. It's the first thing here that makes an existing territory better rather than adding something new next to it.
Recipe: Machined Tooling + Copper Still Coil
2.7 Improvised Armored Vehicles — no building slot
3. Raid Tickets and the Police Station
Tickets are earned by individuals, but everything above is a cartel reward. A member who fought all week for a cartel that came second walks away with nothing personally.
Rename them Raid Tickets — "bounty tickets" already does double duty with regular bounties.
Add a Police Station to the Town page. Raid Tickets are spent there by whoever earned them, on randomised rewards out of the evidence locker — everything the cops confiscated this week, going quietly out the back door.
The cartel fights for the hill; the individual banks tickets either way. Losing stops being a total write-off for the people who showed up.
4. Why this works